"Wish you were here" was the first album I'd listen to over and over, and Gaiman's "The Graveyard Book" was so amazing. Separating art and artist seems best. (OTOH, I'm still enchanted by the "model in my head" of Etgar Keret)
For me, Wish You Were Here represents my terrible first college roommate , drunk off her ass, singing it over and over while crying over her unrequited loved for the boy on the second floor of our dorm. Not quite a memory difficult to part with.
I did grow up with Pink Floyd, though. The Wall represents 5th grade, a year which we played this album over and over in school every chance we got. And as a teen, Pink Floyd Laser shows were a constant weekend event. I saw Roger Waters in concert. I saw Pink Floyd with David Gillmore.
Now? All dead to me. I cannot separate the artist from antisemitic beliefs. I stopped reading Sally Rooney. Dave Chapelle can go rot. I have a long list. Will it cause me to miss out on some things? Yes. But I am at peace with that. I am also at peace with cherishing the memories and feelings that will always be linked to the artwork of an antisemite.
Just as an interesting data, it's not Waters voice you're hearing in Wish You Were Here, it's actually Gilmour, who has a much nicer voice. Listen for example to Comfortably numb which sings Waters and compare.
This is so personal, of course, how much you can separate a creator's odious beliefs from their creations that benefit you. For me, Roger Waters' level of Jew-hatred puts him beyond the pale, but I can also see the sneaky little joy of continuing to enjoy his music, knowing it might unfuriate him that his music is benefitting the people he hates! So many writers have been antisemitic because it was part and parcel of their time and place. Edith Wharton is one of my favorite writers, a genius in my opinion. Her occasional sketches of an unpleasant, wealthy, unattractive Jews rankle a little, but I can live with it. At that level, I just accept. Denial of mass slaughter of my people? That is a bridge too far for me.
I love this notion that a good story is smarter, better, more compassionate than its creator. this says much about the sum of us all and hope we can find each other.
This piece makes an important point that I have often made myself. It is vital to separate the art from its creator; to search for the nuanes therein. It is reminscent of the regular arguments about playing Richard Wagner's work in Israel. He was a vile Jew-hater whose works helped to inspire Nazism. But there is no point in banning or censoring his output as that serves only to make potential audiences yearn to listen and watch his work all the more. I finish with a personal memory of a distinguished German-born Othodox rabbi who lived much of his life in Manchester, UK. Felix Carlebach, after whom a series of Halle Orchestra concerts was named, always insisted that he would listen to Wagner's music - but first removed his yarmulke!!
I don't believe that boycotting is the answer, however I would ask you a question. Can you ever truly separate the art from the artist? Will you ever hear "Wish you were here" again divorced from the reality of the ugliness of Waters?
I can not. If I was a Kanye fan I couldn't listen to his music. I'll never hear Van Morrison in the same way again, or be able to enjoy a Woody Allen film the way I once did. It's very difficult to separate the art from the artist, the artist casts a shadow that remains in the work.
Great art (or at least "different", non washed-out art) comes from people who doesn't fit social behaviour expectations. It's just what being a complex human being is, but in a level they must create something beyond just "regular living" to cope with the experience.
If we had to consume art only from likeable people there wouldn't be any masterpieces around. Of course, liking the person behind it or not is to the consumer's discretion, but it might as well be irrelevant to the strenghts of the piece (which will survive the author) itself.
I agree and I find it perfectly natural that a person wouldn’t want to listen/read someone because the personality of the artist will stand in your way. What is crucial though that there won’t be a protocol for that . It is a personal and intuitive reaction. Somehow I feel that these days we are asked to outsource our compassion and let a system take decisions for us which are totally our own business.
Well said. I never knew that about Waters but it’s not surprising. I love his music though. There are other artists who stand for things that I could never support. At some point I made the decision to not follow him or her as a person but I will continue to consider certain songs of theirs part of my life. Songs take on a personality of their own and form their own relationship with their listeners.
The big problem with cancelling all of Waters' music is that the songs of his that people actually care about were from his days in Pink Floyd. There were 3 other people in that band, and none of the others are remotely antisemitic. None of the classic Pink Floyd songs were in any want antisemitic. How far do we have to cast the net? If you collaborate with someone and then 40 years later they do some awful that is unrelated to your work together, do you have to get cancelled too?
It is Less about it being smart and more about it telling you something that you didn’t know before. If it doesn’t , give it a chance and work on it but the moment it will become frustrating you can leave it for another story. It’s cruel , I know.
This seems worth commenting here at this late date. https://open.substack.com/pub/hilariusbookbinder/p/controversial-art-and-controversial
"Wish you were here" was the first album I'd listen to over and over, and Gaiman's "The Graveyard Book" was so amazing. Separating art and artist seems best. (OTOH, I'm still enchanted by the "model in my head" of Etgar Keret)
For me, Wish You Were Here represents my terrible first college roommate , drunk off her ass, singing it over and over while crying over her unrequited loved for the boy on the second floor of our dorm. Not quite a memory difficult to part with.
I did grow up with Pink Floyd, though. The Wall represents 5th grade, a year which we played this album over and over in school every chance we got. And as a teen, Pink Floyd Laser shows were a constant weekend event. I saw Roger Waters in concert. I saw Pink Floyd with David Gillmore.
Now? All dead to me. I cannot separate the artist from antisemitic beliefs. I stopped reading Sally Rooney. Dave Chapelle can go rot. I have a long list. Will it cause me to miss out on some things? Yes. But I am at peace with that. I am also at peace with cherishing the memories and feelings that will always be linked to the artwork of an antisemite.
yes
Beautiful
Just as an interesting data, it's not Waters voice you're hearing in Wish You Were Here, it's actually Gilmour, who has a much nicer voice. Listen for example to Comfortably numb which sings Waters and compare.
This is so personal, of course, how much you can separate a creator's odious beliefs from their creations that benefit you. For me, Roger Waters' level of Jew-hatred puts him beyond the pale, but I can also see the sneaky little joy of continuing to enjoy his music, knowing it might unfuriate him that his music is benefitting the people he hates! So many writers have been antisemitic because it was part and parcel of their time and place. Edith Wharton is one of my favorite writers, a genius in my opinion. Her occasional sketches of an unpleasant, wealthy, unattractive Jews rankle a little, but I can live with it. At that level, I just accept. Denial of mass slaughter of my people? That is a bridge too far for me.
*shone
„Remember when you were young
You shine like the sun
Shine on you crazy diamond !
Threatened by shadows at night
You return to the light
SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMOND“
I love this notion that a good story is smarter, better, more compassionate than its creator. this says much about the sum of us all and hope we can find each other.
This piece makes an important point that I have often made myself. It is vital to separate the art from its creator; to search for the nuanes therein. It is reminscent of the regular arguments about playing Richard Wagner's work in Israel. He was a vile Jew-hater whose works helped to inspire Nazism. But there is no point in banning or censoring his output as that serves only to make potential audiences yearn to listen and watch his work all the more. I finish with a personal memory of a distinguished German-born Othodox rabbi who lived much of his life in Manchester, UK. Felix Carlebach, after whom a series of Halle Orchestra concerts was named, always insisted that he would listen to Wagner's music - but first removed his yarmulke!!
This is beautiful to read.
I don't believe that boycotting is the answer, however I would ask you a question. Can you ever truly separate the art from the artist? Will you ever hear "Wish you were here" again divorced from the reality of the ugliness of Waters?
I can not. If I was a Kanye fan I couldn't listen to his music. I'll never hear Van Morrison in the same way again, or be able to enjoy a Woody Allen film the way I once did. It's very difficult to separate the art from the artist, the artist casts a shadow that remains in the work.
Great art (or at least "different", non washed-out art) comes from people who doesn't fit social behaviour expectations. It's just what being a complex human being is, but in a level they must create something beyond just "regular living" to cope with the experience.
If we had to consume art only from likeable people there wouldn't be any masterpieces around. Of course, liking the person behind it or not is to the consumer's discretion, but it might as well be irrelevant to the strenghts of the piece (which will survive the author) itself.
I agree and I find it perfectly natural that a person wouldn’t want to listen/read someone because the personality of the artist will stand in your way. What is crucial though that there won’t be a protocol for that . It is a personal and intuitive reaction. Somehow I feel that these days we are asked to outsource our compassion and let a system take decisions for us which are totally our own business.
How true, Etgar!
Outsourcing!!! is the word for all these banning talks and actions.
How deep you are! Thank you so much for this comment & of course this story . Thank you very much.
I agree. I think yours is the best answer to this dilemma I’ve encountered. Art is separate from the artist, but not immune to the artist’s influence.
Well said. I never knew that about Waters but it’s not surprising. I love his music though. There are other artists who stand for things that I could never support. At some point I made the decision to not follow him or her as a person but I will continue to consider certain songs of theirs part of my life. Songs take on a personality of their own and form their own relationship with their listeners.
The big problem with cancelling all of Waters' music is that the songs of his that people actually care about were from his days in Pink Floyd. There were 3 other people in that band, and none of the others are remotely antisemitic. None of the classic Pink Floyd songs were in any want antisemitic. How far do we have to cast the net? If you collaborate with someone and then 40 years later they do some awful that is unrelated to your work together, do you have to get cancelled too?
Wish you were here^^
what do i do with -not so smart- story? should i put it aside and work on it? post it in this platform? put it in a drawer to never see the sunlight?
It is Less about it being smart and more about it telling you something that you didn’t know before. If it doesn’t , give it a chance and work on it but the moment it will become frustrating you can leave it for another story. It’s cruel , I know.
What a great advice. It clicked something in my head.
I wish we talked about it before i posted my last story 😅
I’ve encountered this situation several times in my life. It would be helpful if a term was coined for this. Perhaps the Etgar Keret Effect
YEAH we should number them, then.
Etgar Keret Effect #1, Etgar Keret Effect # 2 … and so on, shouldn‘t we? For every Etgar Keret Stories that helps us regrasp our tenderness ?